The theme so far on QT TT is posting stuff really late. Oops? In the fall I did a few cool interviews with the hopes of printing them into a zine for the QT at the beginning of October. I've been meaning to post them sooner, but oh idk. I've been busy and whatever. You could say I've been in a Queer Time and Place.* haha.
I did this interview on gchat with Jacob Wick. We talked nonhierarchical composition, time warp, and taboo emotionalism. Enjoy!!
I did this interview on gchat with Jacob Wick. We talked nonhierarchical composition, time warp, and taboo emotionalism. Enjoy!!
Thursday, September 14, 2017 4:43 PM
Jacob Wick
hey howdy
Eames Armstrong
hi hi
how is your week goin?
JW - oh, pretty good. i'm playing a big concert next thursday and then i leave for tour the monday following, though, so a little more stress than usual
EA - how big is big?
JW - but the weather is nice and i have a dog this week so that's helping
it's in a festival here in mexico city called aural, opening for roscoe mitchell and the chicago underground duo. what's big about it for me is not so much the names, although i am really excited to see roscoe mitchell play again and really curious about what he's going to do with the chicago underground duo, but that it will be the first time i'm presenting original compositions in like 6 years
EA - oooh, cool. so two questions coming at you- what kind of work have you been doing in the last six years, and then I want to ask about how you approach composition
JW - i've been mostly improvising and/or playing other people's compositions. or not really playing at all. like i left new york in 2011 to go to grad school in the bay area and barely performed at all for about 3 years. then when i moved to mexico i suddenly began performing a lot
EA - ah, grad school. I got an MFA last year and am crazily looking at PhDs now. what did you go to school for? then composition question
JW - haha it's not crazy, school is nice i think. i got an MFA from the social practice workshop at the california college of the arts
so i was focusing more on non-music-related scoring, i guess, like a way of putting people in situations that didn't involve composition or stage-performance
composition question: i'm more interested in music as a means to effect relations between people than as an aesthetic thing. so i use kind of a hodgepodge of compositional techniques. but my goal is usually to give or force everybody in the group to have more or less the same level of agency
i mean effect with an e btw
haha
EA - can you give an example of a situation that you composed that was particularly successful? which I think also asks what constitutes a successful work?
also feel free to be like "next question" at any point haha
JW - uhhh well right after i graduated from CCA i did a project in philadelphia called germantown city hall. i worked with a group of artists there called "The Think Tank that has yet to be named..." (meredith warner, jeremy beaudry, and katie hargrave) to make available an abandoned city hall structure in the germantown neighborhood of philadelphia into a functioning "city hall" in the manner of anarchist town halls in various new england towns in the late 19th century
it ran for a little over a month and various members of the community presented art installations, workshops, etc nearly every day. sometimes more than once a day. that felt successful because i think we achieved what we set out to do, which was to make the city hall accessible in a relatively non-hierarchical way. like to open a space of civic discourse i guess
maybe it didn't achieve anything so grandiose as a space of civic discourse but it was getting there. i'm still very proud of that project and don't mind at all that it is the only thing i have "done" so far with my MFA
i don't know what constitutes a successful work tbh. but i think it has something to do with having an intention and having the work follow that intention?
EA - yea I think its totally circumstantial
JW - agreed
Jacob Wick
hey howdy
Eames Armstrong
hi hi
how is your week goin?
JW - oh, pretty good. i'm playing a big concert next thursday and then i leave for tour the monday following, though, so a little more stress than usual
EA - how big is big?
JW - but the weather is nice and i have a dog this week so that's helping
it's in a festival here in mexico city called aural, opening for roscoe mitchell and the chicago underground duo. what's big about it for me is not so much the names, although i am really excited to see roscoe mitchell play again and really curious about what he's going to do with the chicago underground duo, but that it will be the first time i'm presenting original compositions in like 6 years
EA - oooh, cool. so two questions coming at you- what kind of work have you been doing in the last six years, and then I want to ask about how you approach composition
JW - i've been mostly improvising and/or playing other people's compositions. or not really playing at all. like i left new york in 2011 to go to grad school in the bay area and barely performed at all for about 3 years. then when i moved to mexico i suddenly began performing a lot
EA - ah, grad school. I got an MFA last year and am crazily looking at PhDs now. what did you go to school for? then composition question
JW - haha it's not crazy, school is nice i think. i got an MFA from the social practice workshop at the california college of the arts
so i was focusing more on non-music-related scoring, i guess, like a way of putting people in situations that didn't involve composition or stage-performance
composition question: i'm more interested in music as a means to effect relations between people than as an aesthetic thing. so i use kind of a hodgepodge of compositional techniques. but my goal is usually to give or force everybody in the group to have more or less the same level of agency
i mean effect with an e btw
haha
EA - can you give an example of a situation that you composed that was particularly successful? which I think also asks what constitutes a successful work?
also feel free to be like "next question" at any point haha
JW - uhhh well right after i graduated from CCA i did a project in philadelphia called germantown city hall. i worked with a group of artists there called "The Think Tank that has yet to be named..." (meredith warner, jeremy beaudry, and katie hargrave) to make available an abandoned city hall structure in the germantown neighborhood of philadelphia into a functioning "city hall" in the manner of anarchist town halls in various new england towns in the late 19th century
it ran for a little over a month and various members of the community presented art installations, workshops, etc nearly every day. sometimes more than once a day. that felt successful because i think we achieved what we set out to do, which was to make the city hall accessible in a relatively non-hierarchical way. like to open a space of civic discourse i guess
maybe it didn't achieve anything so grandiose as a space of civic discourse but it was getting there. i'm still very proud of that project and don't mind at all that it is the only thing i have "done" so far with my MFA
i don't know what constitutes a successful work tbh. but i think it has something to do with having an intention and having the work follow that intention?
EA - yea I think its totally circumstantial
JW - agreed
EA - if it does at all, how does this kind of thinking about creating space for discourse or non-hierarchical structures influence the work you make musically?
JW - welll. right now i'm trying to compose in a way that removes me as the "leader." so everyone has equal responsibility, more or less, or equal power to move the composition along or whatever
and i think in a roundabout way it's affected my improvisations as well. like right now i'm focused pretty heavily on playing long, more or less static noisey textures
which, after thinking about it, i'm really excited about because it causes a kind of chain effect, in idea at least
like using unstable acoustic noise that dodges the human breath causes a kind of time warp that can open up a space temporally and emotionally
EA - um please go on about this time warp
JW - lol
welll
for me time is marked more by phrasing and breath, musically and in general, than by clocks
like the experience of time i mean. and if there's no breath, then one's sense of time gets kind of muddled i think. like when i listen to droney stuff or noise—eliane radigue is a master i think—i lose all sense of how much time is passing and kind of fall into a hole
and i think that can be kind of a liberating and kind of a queer place to be. like when you lose yourself a little bit, when your sense of self kind of blurs
in performance, for me at least, using these kinds of textures makes me really emotional also, but in a kind of vague way. like not happy or sad or directed, just emotional. i'm not sure if that's because of what i'm playing or because what i'm playing is extremely physically demanding, tho
JW - welll. right now i'm trying to compose in a way that removes me as the "leader." so everyone has equal responsibility, more or less, or equal power to move the composition along or whatever
and i think in a roundabout way it's affected my improvisations as well. like right now i'm focused pretty heavily on playing long, more or less static noisey textures
which, after thinking about it, i'm really excited about because it causes a kind of chain effect, in idea at least
like using unstable acoustic noise that dodges the human breath causes a kind of time warp that can open up a space temporally and emotionally
EA - um please go on about this time warp
JW - lol
welll
for me time is marked more by phrasing and breath, musically and in general, than by clocks
like the experience of time i mean. and if there's no breath, then one's sense of time gets kind of muddled i think. like when i listen to droney stuff or noise—eliane radigue is a master i think—i lose all sense of how much time is passing and kind of fall into a hole
and i think that can be kind of a liberating and kind of a queer place to be. like when you lose yourself a little bit, when your sense of self kind of blurs
in performance, for me at least, using these kinds of textures makes me really emotional also, but in a kind of vague way. like not happy or sad or directed, just emotional. i'm not sure if that's because of what i'm playing or because what i'm playing is extremely physically demanding, tho
EA - well it sounds as if this sort of emotional zone is something not limited to your own physical playing experience if its something you get hearing it from someone else, live or recorded
JW - true. i think it's what draws me to these kinds of music in the first place
like i'm really things that are jarring in a non-macho way
EA - non-macho sounds?
JW - yeah i don't know. i associate virtuosity for the sake of virtuosity with machismo
and there's stuff that's jarring in that vain, but i find it really dull
"jarring"
EA - I'm going to sit with that and come back to it
JW - that's cool i may or may not be talking myself into a trap there anyway
EA - lol na
I'm at the library rn reading a book "queerness in heavy metal music"
I have a lot of thoughts
JW - whoa i want to see that book
also read it
EA - so far whats so exciting to me about it is the writer comes at the question "how can you possibly queer metal" with something like "are you kidding metal has always been so gay"
which rhymes so nicely I think with how Michael and Richard and I are all kind of approaching queer trash
so maybe we can come back to machismo with a detour through queer
wonder what your take is on the name 'queer trash' -like what your thinking or relationship or associations are with it
JW - i'm into it
i don't know if i have a take on it though. i like the idea of owning trash or discarded sentiment/performance/objects/etc
and i guess i am pretty committed to resuscitating sentiment, like really intensely feeling, which is maybe trashy at some or all points
EA - ooh thats nice. emotionalism is so taboo
JW - i know right? which is silly
i mean i guess it's not, like it's easier and more efficient and whatever to not feel, but i am not so into being efficient. or maybe i'm really efficiency-minded and trying to convince myself not to be
and i can be grandiose for a second, i think the main thing that neoliberalism does is rob us of our own humanity, ie neoliberalism is driven by the abstraction of things from themselves, including people, so that we start to think of our own lives in terms of productivity as if we were machines
and while i'm all for donna haraway and cyber-whateverisms, i also reject being a machine
not that i think donna haraway and a neoliberal project are in any way connected, nor have i ever fucking read anything by donna haraway so just forget it. i have watched/listened to a bunch of her talks on youtube but i'm not sure that counts
EA - bahaha
she's a little wacky but like really trendy right now it seems
JW - shes' totally wacky, i love listening to her talk
EA - theres also something perfect about encountering her through youtube, which- i think- is a completely legit way to "read" her
JW - true. i think it's what draws me to these kinds of music in the first place
like i'm really things that are jarring in a non-macho way
EA - non-macho sounds?
JW - yeah i don't know. i associate virtuosity for the sake of virtuosity with machismo
and there's stuff that's jarring in that vain, but i find it really dull
"jarring"
EA - I'm going to sit with that and come back to it
JW - that's cool i may or may not be talking myself into a trap there anyway
EA - lol na
I'm at the library rn reading a book "queerness in heavy metal music"
I have a lot of thoughts
JW - whoa i want to see that book
also read it
EA - so far whats so exciting to me about it is the writer comes at the question "how can you possibly queer metal" with something like "are you kidding metal has always been so gay"
which rhymes so nicely I think with how Michael and Richard and I are all kind of approaching queer trash
so maybe we can come back to machismo with a detour through queer
wonder what your take is on the name 'queer trash' -like what your thinking or relationship or associations are with it
JW - i'm into it
i don't know if i have a take on it though. i like the idea of owning trash or discarded sentiment/performance/objects/etc
and i guess i am pretty committed to resuscitating sentiment, like really intensely feeling, which is maybe trashy at some or all points
EA - ooh thats nice. emotionalism is so taboo
JW - i know right? which is silly
i mean i guess it's not, like it's easier and more efficient and whatever to not feel, but i am not so into being efficient. or maybe i'm really efficiency-minded and trying to convince myself not to be
and i can be grandiose for a second, i think the main thing that neoliberalism does is rob us of our own humanity, ie neoliberalism is driven by the abstraction of things from themselves, including people, so that we start to think of our own lives in terms of productivity as if we were machines
and while i'm all for donna haraway and cyber-whateverisms, i also reject being a machine
not that i think donna haraway and a neoliberal project are in any way connected, nor have i ever fucking read anything by donna haraway so just forget it. i have watched/listened to a bunch of her talks on youtube but i'm not sure that counts
EA - bahaha
she's a little wacky but like really trendy right now it seems
JW - shes' totally wacky, i love listening to her talk
EA - theres also something perfect about encountering her through youtube, which- i think- is a completely legit way to "read" her
JW - i like listening to philosophers/theorists talk
i listened to foucault's lectures at berkeley that are/were on ubuweb a lot a few years ago and really enjoyed it
like the way he talked, laughed, etc. but also a line where he says "we think of ourselves as subjects of desire, but when will we start thinking of ourselves as agents of pleasure" or something like that
EA - when you're performing do you think of yourself as an agent of pleasure??
JW - maybe as an ultimate goal
when i'm performing i'm mostly thinking about staying relaxed and breathing
but i like the idea of being an agent of pleasure a lot
EA - what does that make the audience?
JW - hm
i guess a potentially desirous public
EA - a sea of subs lol
JW - lolol
yaassss
no i don't know
i guess when i'm talking about being committed to feeling, but not a particular feeling, i mean i want to be an agent of, like, something
maybe not necessarily pleasure, just something
EA - that makes sense- would you say theres a kind of process of exploring or trying to locate that -something- in improvisation?
JW - yes 100%
like i am a pretty firm believer that all sound casts affect, maybe not specific emotions, but usually something. so performed sound has more of a capacity than other media to alter a body's emotional state
EA - you mean performed as opposed to recorded?
JW - i did when i was typing it but no, i think both have that capacity
maybe performed is more direct because of the physicality of it. not only the performance but just that there are bodies with each other in a room
EA - mm yeah I was wondering about presence and sociality in relation to the time warp you mentioned earlier
JW - yeah, i mean i think melting together is an ideal aspect of the time warp sensation
but i'm not sure this kind of group sensation is impossible through recorded media
but it is definitely more easy or more available in a performance context, especially an intimate performance context where everybody is kind of huddled together anyway
EA - have you performed in other specifically queer contexts before?
JW - not really, although i would like to. i performed in queer trash last year and then shortly thereafter in a series called "queer sound ithaca" in ithaca
EA - well this has been terrific, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me
is there anything else you want to mention or throw out?
JW - ummmm no? not that i can think of
i'm excited to play and i hope to meet you there! thanks for talking with me also
EA - for sure! thanks again see u soon
JW - byeyeyeyeyyeye
--Interview edited just a little for typos and clarity, otherwise text style kept original
Here is another interview on Jazz Right Now if you just can't get enough!!
*Can you download this book through this link? hmu if you need access.
i listened to foucault's lectures at berkeley that are/were on ubuweb a lot a few years ago and really enjoyed it
like the way he talked, laughed, etc. but also a line where he says "we think of ourselves as subjects of desire, but when will we start thinking of ourselves as agents of pleasure" or something like that
EA - when you're performing do you think of yourself as an agent of pleasure??
JW - maybe as an ultimate goal
when i'm performing i'm mostly thinking about staying relaxed and breathing
but i like the idea of being an agent of pleasure a lot
EA - what does that make the audience?
JW - hm
i guess a potentially desirous public
EA - a sea of subs lol
JW - lolol
yaassss
no i don't know
i guess when i'm talking about being committed to feeling, but not a particular feeling, i mean i want to be an agent of, like, something
maybe not necessarily pleasure, just something
EA - that makes sense- would you say theres a kind of process of exploring or trying to locate that -something- in improvisation?
JW - yes 100%
like i am a pretty firm believer that all sound casts affect, maybe not specific emotions, but usually something. so performed sound has more of a capacity than other media to alter a body's emotional state
EA - you mean performed as opposed to recorded?
JW - i did when i was typing it but no, i think both have that capacity
maybe performed is more direct because of the physicality of it. not only the performance but just that there are bodies with each other in a room
EA - mm yeah I was wondering about presence and sociality in relation to the time warp you mentioned earlier
JW - yeah, i mean i think melting together is an ideal aspect of the time warp sensation
but i'm not sure this kind of group sensation is impossible through recorded media
but it is definitely more easy or more available in a performance context, especially an intimate performance context where everybody is kind of huddled together anyway
EA - have you performed in other specifically queer contexts before?
JW - not really, although i would like to. i performed in queer trash last year and then shortly thereafter in a series called "queer sound ithaca" in ithaca
EA - well this has been terrific, thanks so much for taking the time to talk to me
is there anything else you want to mention or throw out?
JW - ummmm no? not that i can think of
i'm excited to play and i hope to meet you there! thanks for talking with me also
EA - for sure! thanks again see u soon
JW - byeyeyeyeyyeye
--Interview edited just a little for typos and clarity, otherwise text style kept original
Here is another interview on Jazz Right Now if you just can't get enough!!
*Can you download this book through this link? hmu if you need access.
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